Where the REAL Money is Made in Multifamily

David:That is the BiggerPockets Podcast Present 739.

Andrew:So a property supervisor is anyone who does the day-to-day stuff. An asset supervisor is large image, set the route. So consider like a cruise ship. When you ever been on a cruise, there’s the actions director and that’s the person who works like 18 hours a day. They’re operating round at all times ensuring the reveals are on time, and dinner begins on time, and the precise variety of chairs on the deck, and all that little minutia that’s vital to creating for a superb cruise. The asset supervisor is the captain of the ship.

David:What’s occurring, everybody? That is David Greene, your host of the BiggerPockets Actual Property Podcast, the largest, the most effective, the baddest actual property investing podcast on the planet right here in the present day with a deal with for you. I’ve acquired two of my good associates and studly multi-family buyers, Matt Faircloth and Andrew Kushman right here to speak asset administration and property administration and operations at a bunch of stuff that can make you cash for those who get into this area and extra importantly allow you to not lose cash for those who get into this area sooner or later.As we speak is improbable. We get into two actually, actually vital factors, forming your money-making staff after which studying the right way to talk with them and practice them to speak with you to be able to scale and construct a worthwhile enterprise, not shopping for an asset that makes you need to pull your hair out of your head and find yourself like me. We get into precise tales that these two have skilled as they’ve managed multi-family belongings for years now, to be able to be taught from their errors and keep away from your individual in addition to discover the items which can be most probably to assist take you to the following stage. Look, it’s no shock that the financial system is shifting. We’re heading right into a recession and it’s getting tougher and tougher to make actual property work now greater than ever. It’s vital to know the right way to truly function the asset that you simply’ve been being instructed for years it’s worthwhile to go purchase.Among the issues that you simply’re going to be taught for those who pay attention in the present day is the place to seek out employees that can allow you to what to search for, inquiries to ask property managers, what to search for in a property supervisor earlier than you rent them, the distinction between an asset supervisor and a property supervisor, and what upkeep supervisors can do that may improve the NOI of your property and really make it extra worthwhile. That and extra on in the present day’s present. You don’t need to miss it. Earlier than we get into the interview, in the present day’s fast dip is test the present notes. We’ve acquired a listing for you, 27 inquiries to ask a property supervisor earlier than hiring them that comes straight from Matt and Andrew’s expertise doing this themselves. That’s free for you. Thanks for listening. We love you. All proper, let’s get into in the present day’s present,Andrew, Matt, welcome again to the BiggerPockets Podcast reside for us, however not for the viewers from Lake Tahoe at our winter retreat in GoBundance. As we speak we’re going to be speaking multi-family, however extra particularly operation of multi-family. So let’s begin off with folks that don’t know the distinction between a property supervisor and an asset supervisor. How would you describe that, Andrew?

Andrew:So a property supervisor is anyone who does the day-to-day stuff. An asset supervisor is large image, set the route. So consider like a cruise ship. When you’ve ever been on a cruise, there’s the actions director, and that’s the person who works like 18 hours a day. They’re operating round, they’re ensuring the reveals are on time, and dinner begins on time, and the precise variety of chairs on the deck, and all that little trivialities that’s vital to creating for a superb cruise.The asset supervisor is the captain of the ship. Yeah. He’s saying, “All proper, we acquired a storm coming in. We’re going to shift slightly. We’re going to shift 100 miles to the precise, go across the bottom of the island. We’d like to verify we get to this port in seven days.” He’s wanting large image, ensuring that’s going to occur. That’s the distinction between property administration and asset administration. And it’s not a wonderfully clearcut delineation, particularly for those who’re doing smaller stuff like fourplexes and 10 models. It’s extra of a spectrum. And for those who’re self-managing and also you’re simply beginning out along with your first fourplex, you’re doing each jobs. However as you scale and develop, the distinction turns into an increasing number of vital. And as an investor trying to create wealth, you’re actually going to need to concentrate on that asset administration aspect. That’s the place the actual cash is made.

David:So do you’re feeling most buyers are the asset managers themselves or is there a dimension of complicated the place you’re truly going to leverage out asset administration in addition to property administration?

Andrew:I’d say most buyers are the asset managers themselves. For instance, I used to be my very own asset supervisor till a few thousand models. After which as soon as we acquired into over 2000 models, I began bringing on an asset administration staff to assist with that as a result of it turns into a full-time job. Even for those who’re not concerned within the day-to-day property administration, simply managing… When you’ve acquired 10 fourplexes scattered round city, even when you’ve got an admin individual to assist with collections and submitting evictions and all that, nonetheless you’re going to be coping with the lender. It is advisable determine, “Am I going to promote this one in a single yr? Am I going to promote this one in two years? If I do promote it, what am I going to do with the cash?” And so there’s a sure level… I believe, once more, I used to be my very own up till a thousand, and I waited means too lengthy.And if I lastly graduated, it was like Pinocchio. My enterprise was like Pinocchio. It lastly turned an actual enterprise once I added some folks to assist me with that stuff. I keep in mind that we had been truly, perhaps right here in Tahoe after we had been having that dialog about what it might seem like to leverage off a number of the work with out leveraging off the precise imaginative and prescient casting, which I keep in mind was like in your head you noticed it as if I rent somebody, I’m giving up full management versus you’re nonetheless creating the imaginative and prescient, however they’re executing on the imaginative and prescient that you simply’ve now solid for them. And I acquired to say, people, his profession has exploded since then and I’m going to take as a lot credit score as I can.

David:No, yeah, you deserve a number of the credit score for that. You significantly do. We had a superb couple good lengthy talks and that helped. Nicely, I actually profit from it as a result of we partnered collectively on [inaudible 00:05:41]. I can’t say that I’m not consuming out of that very same all through.

Matt:I simply need to throw another factor out, that you simply’ve actually rubbed off on Andrew a bit as a result of he’s now made two analogies within the first 5 minutes of this podcast. You’ve made zero to date. So we’ve acquired a cruise director analogy and we’ve additionally acquired the Pinocchio “I’m an actual boy” analogy as nicely.

David:Andrew’s as much as an early lead.

Matt:Acquired some catching up with you, David Greene. So I’ll glad to maintain rating on the analogy scoreboard right here throughout this podcast.

David:All proper. Matt, I’m going to show it to you now. God, within the final a number of years of actual property, we’ve seen a lot stimulus. We’ve seen a lot folks that had been stepping into the syndication sport particularly that had no expertise in any respect. And the rising financial system, it actually was this fragrance that lined up loads of stink the place. On the first minute we see slightly little bit of rate of interest rising. It’s like, “Oh, my God, this what’s been occurring the entire time. The lipsticks coming off the pig in loads of these circumstances.” What’s your perspective on how vital operations are in comparison with simply acquisitions, which is the place loads of the eye is?

Matt:Yeah. I imply, the final 10 years has merely been get into the sport. You can have purchased a multi-family and actually accomplished nothing with it. Let it run into the bottom, let tenants utterly not pay the lease, let issues go willy-nilly, let the grass develop three toes excessive, and offered it for a ton greater than you purchased it for. I imply actually anyone might have gotten to this sport, and guess what, anyone did. And there are many people which can be for 20 grand or no matter prepared to show you the right way to spend money on actual property or no matter. And lots of people did pay that sort of cash to get into the multi-family sport. And so now it’s merely been get into the sport and get a deal and crush your fingers and you’ll promote it in a yr for lots greater than you paid for it.That’s labored up till lately with rising charges and the sellers can’t simply identify their costs after they go to promote properties anymore. And so we’re going to get again right down to good quaint actual property investing the place you’re going to have to speculate for money move and never appreciation. And, for those who’re going to speculate for money move, for those who’re going to make an funding right into a factor that’s going to reward you for its efficiency, you must have good asset administration on the asset. You possibly can’t simply cross your fingers and permit the rising tide that’s risen for 10 years, proper? Nicely, let’s all excessive 5. That’s been nice. It’s helped everyone out. However that’s not the long run. Money move goes to be king I believe for the foreseeable future. And to make that occur, you want asset administration, KPIs, enterprise plans, well-run properties, and also you won’t promote a yr after you purchase it.

David:One factor I’ve observed, if you perceive the basics of actual property, first off, the entire thing will get a lot extra easy than if you ask for a blueprint of, “Nicely, what am I imagined to do? Inform me precisely what to do.” When you perceive that residences are, like the worth of them or business property generally is a perform of two items. You’ve acquired a cap fee and also you’ve acquired NOI. And you’ll’t management the cap fee and you’ll’t management the NOI. That’s quite simple. Now there’s issues you may’t management the cap fee very similar to you may’t management the winds, however you may take a look at wind patterns within chart your course in a route that can favor you. However finally, you may’t management that versus NOI, which could to be like the fellows within the backside of the boat rowing. I’m making an attempt to make amends for analogies. You bought loads of them…You bought two elements that decide the worth of a business property. Then for those who go inside NOI, there are two elements that management that. You’ve acquired earnings and also you’ve acquired bills. It simplifies issues. So operations is rather a lot about simply the artwork of how do I decrease bills and the way do I maximize earnings. It’s actually that easy. So on that behalf, after we know that’s the one half that you may management inside multi-family actual property, and it’s so vital. What’s your ideas, Matt, on for those who ought to self-manage or for those who ought to leverage one thing that vital to a 3rd celebration?

Matt:After I first acquired concerned in actual property, I didn’t go straight into it. There truly are different issues you may spend money on in addition to house buildings. And so I began investing in single households and small multis and labored my means up by way of that. And there was some extent the place Liz and I had been operating 115 models with a small crew ourselves out of Trenton, New Jersey. And so we self-managed for a really very long time. And it may be accomplished. It was in essence a full-time job for me and a small staff to do. However the cash that we made doing it, ’trigger we charged ourself a property administration price, was sufficient to maintain our lights on and hold our household fed and reside a reasonably good life-style.However there was a fulcrum that it was like a choice level the place we had been shopping for a 49-unit that was not in Trenton. It was a superb bit away from there. It will’ve pressured me to have to start out up a brand new PM firm in a brand new market and that’s what I wished to do. However my spouse, who usually has the higher thought than I do, mentioned, “Let’s attempt hiring a brand new PM to run this.” And we did and so they did an exceptional job. I nonetheless consider we most likely would’ve accomplished higher, however they did adequate to maintain the asset operating. And with good asset administration ways, the property did very, very nicely and that enabled me to scale.So I believe at first for these listening to this that don’t have 2, 3, 400 models of, they perhaps have a duplex, when you’ve got a duplex and also you need to ultimately do that actual property investing enterprise full-time, managing your self it may very well be a profitable sufficient enterprise to feed your loved ones, hold your lights on for now. And it’ll additionally actually allow you to develop the parameters of administration as a result of I realized the ins and outs of administration in doing it myself and ultimately I ended up giving it as much as one other celebration, nevertheless it taught me a ton and it additionally fed me very nicely whereas I did it.

David:All proper. Andrew, throwing to you. In your perspective, what are a number of the execs and cons of every possibility?

Andrew:Yeah, Matt talked about a number of the execs. One is for those who do it, scale it nicely sufficient, it could turn into one other earnings stream. So it may be a balancing issue, stabilizing issue. One other factor that’s usually listed as a professional is that you’ve extra management, and that’s true, however the assumption there may be that management and likewise that you simply care about your property greater than anyone. So the idea there may be, “Nicely, if I’ve management and I care about it greater than anyone, then I’m going to do a very good job. Nicely, caring doesn’t equal competence.” If my spouse wants surgical procedure for one thing, I’m not going to stroll into the OR and be like, “Hey, Doc, you recognize what? I care about her greater than you. Let me take this.No, I would like the most effective. He might hate my guts, but when he’s actually good at that surgical procedure and he’s going to do it proper, I would like him to try this surgical procedure. In order that’s a fable of caring equals competence and it doesn’t. However, when you’ve got the abilities to associate with it, then yeah, that’s a very good mixture. On the flip aspect, a number of the cons of property administration is likely one of the most excessive headache companies. You’re principally operating a large HR agency. All you do all day lengthy is take care of folks issues and payroll after which delinquent tenants and evictions and courts and all that. And it doesn’t pay that nicely. It’s a really low margin, excessive stress enterprise and it may be actually draining, the folks that I do know they do it positively say that.And in addition that’s one thing to bear in mind, property administration is a separate enterprise from actual property investing, so you’re operating two companies for those who determine to try this. How do making a decision? We might do an hour lengthy panel on the professionals and cons and actually dive in into that. It is determined by what your finish targets are, what number of models you might have. When you’ve acquired one fourplex, you’re going to be taught some stuff from self-managing that at first. So I’d suggest self-managing. The place do you make the transition? That’s stuff to say. Once more, it’s a spectrum. It’s like, for those who’re a vegan and also you’re in into crossfit, how do you determine which one to speak about first? It’s going to be totally different for each individual and it is determined by the state of affairs.

David:You guys are digging deep on this analogy factor, each you two. I imply actually you’re very aggressive. I’m actually having fun with as a spectator sport, watching the analogy backwards and forwards. All proper, so on that word, Matt, in the case of discovering a property administration firm, if that’s one thing that you simply’re trying to do, what recommendation do you might have for the right way to discover a fantastic firm? Nicely,

Matt:What’s fascinating is you might simply look it up by way of your pals at Google, simply Google PM firms in Albuquerque, New Mexico or no matter. However probably for those who’re shopping for a property, and let’s decide Albuquerque as a result of it’s a enjoyable identify to say because the market that you simply need to spend money on, you probably acquired to the property that you simply’re by way of different leads you might have, most likely a realtor that you simply’re working with, most likely perhaps a mortgage dealer that’s native, perhaps an legal professional, perhaps different actual property investor associates you might have by way of assembly them on the BiggerPockets boards. So that you ask for referrals, you discuss to different folks which can be already energetic or already reside or current in that market. And then you definitely search for leads.And then you definitely’re going to need to additionally discover out what do they handle, proper? As a result of if a property supervisor tells you that they’ll handle the strip heart that’s down the road out of your property and so they also can handle the duplex you’re shopping for in Albuquerque and so they also can handle a hundred-unit house constructing that’s down the road, that’s the improper property administration firm. These are three very totally different entities that handle issues like that. So that you need to ensure that their candy spot, their core, their, and I’ll throw an analogy out, the Goldilocks of them, not too scorching, not too chilly, excellent is the asset that you’ve. You don’t need them to be every little thing to everybody as a result of property administration’s not that. There’s a stage of experience that they should deliver to the desk for the property that you simply’re shopping for.

David:So Andrew, if you discover a firm that you simply suppose may very well be good and also you’re trying to vet them, what are some questions that you simply’d suggest folks ask these firms?

Andrew:We acquired an entire lengthy record of questions and we are able to present a doc with, we acquired 20 one thing of them. We are able to present a hyperlink to that within the present notes. However a number of the predominant ones, and Matt alluded slightly bit to this, is what’s their background? Is it a administration firm that simply began two years in the past? And are they slightly inexperienced and inexperienced or have they been round for many years? And the founders, the place did they arrive from? Have been they ex-engineers since you don’t need to belief these guys. Or for instance, the administration firm that we employed was based by two executives in a a lot larger administration firm that acquired fed up with the company tradition and mentioned, “We might do higher.”They jumped out, began their very own and have accomplished a very good job. So what’s the background of the founders. Matt, you touched on this, asset and sophistication specialization. You don’t need to rent a property administration firm to run your 10-unit when their focus is self-storage. They’re not going to have the information and so they’re not going to have the efficiencies and so they might not even care. Some administration firms will tackle belongings they shouldn’t simply to get the income, however they’re not going to do a superb job with it. And in addition for those who focus on C-class properties, don’t rent an A-class property administration firm as a result of they may run your C-class far more costly than it’s in a position to help. And there’s very other ways of operating these. So it’s not simply self storage and multi-family, it’s additionally class. You additionally need a administration firm that ideally focuses on your market.There are some good nationwide stage property administration firms. My desire is regional ones. So for instance, the one we use, they solely do the southeast United States so their footprint matches ours. They’ve acquired like 26,000 models. In order that they’re large enough that they’ve efficiencies of scale however sufficiently small that I can name the house owners of the corporate on their cellphone if there’s an actual concern and I have to get anyone. So I’m asking questions, “Nicely, what’s your footprint? What number of models do you might have?” What number of models have they got in your submarket? So if an organization has 10,000 models in Dallas and also you’re giving them a property in Lubbock, however they’ve by no means managed in Lubbock, they’re not going to be good in Lubbock. Primary, they’re not going to take the time to go on the market. Quantity two, they don’t know the market. It’s a really totally different market.So these are a number of the query. After which one other one that’s vital that I believe lots of people don’t suppose to ask is you is actually really feel them out for what ideally Mr and Mrs. Property Administration Firm, what sort of relationship do you prefer to have with the house owners of the property? As a result of in the event that they’re the kind of property administration firm that desires you to go away and simply learn your report as soon as a month, that’s not going to work. That to me is a big crimson flag. You need a property administration firm that sees you as a associate to be able to work collectively and develop collectively and construct a relationship. And that to me is likely one of the greatest keys. And like I mentioned, there’s an entire lot extra questions past that, however once I sit right down to interview property administration firm, these are a number of the issues I’m asking a number of questions to seek out out about.

David:Matt, in the case of hiring staff members, so perhaps such as you had been speaking about what Andrew did when he began to scale in order that he might get a number of the stuff off of his plate that he was all doing himself. What are some belongings you’ve realized over time? We’re going to speak to each you guys about this. Recommendation for different folks that have some small multi-family or they’ve some massive multi-family. They’ve been doing every little thing themselves. They’re burning out, or they need to scale, they need to go extra. They’re listening to us speak about, “I need to be an actual boy.”

Andrew:Can’t steal another person’s analogy. Thanks. Yeah, disqualified analogy reference. Thanks.

David:Maintain. Andrew simply objected off to the aspect. Your Honor, Objection. Overused. All proper. So what are the issues that you simply suppose folks have to search for after they’re hiring or pay attention to?

Matt:The property administration and asset administration are folks companies. And so folks don’t work at jobs without end. And in order a property administration firm and as an asset supervisor as nicely, you’re going to be always hiring. I imply, Andrew, you may say each you and I personal multi-family properties. It’s at all times, nicely this upkeep technician give up or this web site supervisor is discovered one other job or the leasing agent left or no matter. So there’s always the trouble of changing seats on the PM aspect. And so, there’s the dialog of, “If I’m self-managing, I perhaps need to rent a brand new upkeep technician? So what do they bring about to the desk?” After I first employed, considered one of my first hires was a upkeep technician and it was all about, I would like anyone with a truck and loads of instruments on it. They will repair loads of various things that is aware of about loads of totally different stuff. The jack of all trades with a truck and loads of the instruments they want for these trades within the automobile.So if you’re self-managing, that’s perhaps one thing you need to think about. So that you’re not beholden to hiring third celebration contractors each time you need to, like hiring a Roto-Rooter each time you need to get a plumbing. Your bathroom backs up. It’d be significantly better to have your upkeep tech with a plumbing rooting machine that he can do it himself. It’ll be tenth of the price of what a the plumber’s going to cost. So I believe it’s about simply discovering the precise individual to slot in the function that you simply’ve acquired open. So for self-managed, may very well be upkeep technician or anyone that’s acquired bookkeeping background that may very well be your web site supervisor, your workplace supervisor to gather rents, invoice out rents, these sorts of issues. After which I imply, Andrew, I do know that that’s one thing that we’ve talked about earlier than as regards to hiring asset managers. We’ve needed to do it. I do know you’ve accomplished it too. For staff members, for bigger firms which can be hiring subject reps or asset managers for not property administration, however subsequent stage, proper?

Andrew:And I say one of the frequent errors that I see massive and small is anyone hires anyone for property administration after which expects them to do asset administration. When you’ve acquired a leasing agent that’s operating… I’ll provide you with an instance when one of many first folks that I introduced on board was an admin and she or he began serving to with some leasing and coping with tenants and all that sort of factor. And loads of occasions what occurs is folks deliver on that individual or a leasing agent or perhaps a property supervisor for those who’re at 100 models or no matter that may be, after which say, “Okay, cool. This individual’s acquired it. I’m out.” And now what you’ve accomplished is now you’ve made that property supervisor an asset supervisor and that isn’t what you employed them for and it’s most likely not their ability set.In order that’s one thing to pay attention to in your aspect, on the investor aspect and it’s a very tempting factor to do. However when hiring staff members, what we’ve discovered is expertise and expertise are secondary. Primary is angle and tradition and match. And once I say cultural match, it’s not solely to you and your staff, but additionally to your properties and your residents. So Matt, you’re speaking about upkeep folks. That’s what everyone does, “I would like a man with a truck and he’s acquired the instruments and he truly reveals up on time. Okay, that could be a plus. And he’s been a upkeep man for 37 years and he’s HVAC licensed. Nice. I’m going to rent him.” But when he smells like a three-day-old subway sandwich that’s been left within the automotive in the summertime and he’s impolite to the tenants, that’s going to backfire on you as a result of that upkeep individual truly has extra face time with the residents than nearly anyone else in lots of circumstances, proper?

Matt:I’m glad you introduced that up.

Andrew:Yeah. So that you’re not simply hiring for expertise. Abilities are vital. It’s not like test it out the window and rent anyone that smiles good, however you must have the precise angle and demeanor. Similar factor with a leasing individual. I can’t let you know what number of occasions I’ve gone to a restaurant and both the concierge or the waiter simply was so pleasant and amiable. I’m like, “I need to rent this individual and educate them the right way to be a leasing agent.”I imply, sure, you must have the precise location in your property, you must have the precise facilities, however the primary factor is the sensation, folks keep in mind emotions, the way you make them really feel. And so when somebody walks within the door and so they’re greeted by a smile, or perhaps for those who acquired a four-unit, so your leasing individual is assembly them on the unit to provide them a tour. If that individual that you simply added to your staff offers that potential resident a fantastic private expertise and so they had been useful and so they had been smiling and all that, it doesn’t matter in the event that they know the distinction between pig tailing and aluminum wiring versus changing utilizing CO/ARL shops. That’s nice, however that’s not going to make the large greatest distinction.So whether or not you’re in search of a leasing agent, property supervisor, upkeep, any of those positions, once more, whether or not you’re hiring straight or a part of third celebration, primary factor is angle, tradition, and demeanor. You possibly can’t educate that stuff. That’s inherent. You possibly can educate expertise. And a few of our best staff members that in the present day I simply can’t think about residing with out got here to us with zero multi-family expertise, however they’d an angle of curiosity, of studying, friendliness, and simply eager to serve folks.

David:That’s one thing that’s very invaluable for the listeners who need to get into this area or any area in actual property actually to know, we have a tendency to have a look at these items the place, “I would like a mentor, I would like somebody to show me what am I imagined to do.” As if upon getting the information, it’ll all simply fall into place. However the folks we all know which can be profitable at this, you two, neither considered one of you’re individuals who simply have info however your butt holes.When you don’t know hardly anybody who’s actually… Except they’re simply extremely savvy and so they can get away with being a jerk, it’s very uncommon that you simply see that, proper? Basically, you don’t see profitable folks that aren’t good with different folks. And so having that potential to make somebody really feel good, to make folks to really feel comfy trusting you, elevating cash I don’t suppose… Bren and I had been speaking about this, when anyone brings an working settlement to you or a personal place, a memorandum and so they’re like, “Right here’s the angle deal,” not solely do you not know if it’s going to work out like they mentioned, you may’t even know if they simply made up these numbers. How will we ever return and confirm. You don’t have the ability to try this in any other case you most likely wouldn’t be the LP within the deal.You might be trusting the human being, the sensation that they offer you after which for those who’re sensible the monitor report that they’ve. So studying these expertise, it’s just like the cap fee versus the NOI. Cap fee performs such an even bigger function within the properties worth going up than the NOI, however the NOI is a factor you may management. You possibly can expertise, but when you will get the folks expertise down, it has an astronomically bigger affect on the worth. Similar to for those who purchased a property at eight cap and it compressed to a two cap. It nearly doesn’t matter what occurred with the NOI. It’s a lot larger. The profitable folks we see, particularly right here, get fortunate proper there. Nicely, yeah, I imply the way in which that the mathematics works. That might be extra invaluable.

Matt:Yeah. The underside line’s simply don’t be a jerk. Folks expertise and with the ability to handle folks and tackle their wants and suppose the large image is actually one of many largest belongings on the market that any enterprise proprietor can have.

Andrew:All proper. Matt, in the case of a superb property supervisor, what are some expertise that they need to have?

Matt:I believe that, you don’t need a property supervisor that’s at all times late on your calls. You need to use little cues about, nicely, I had despatched my property supervisor an e-mail and it took them 4 days to get again to me. And each week I’ve a Zoom name with them and so they present up quarter-hour late. They’re at all times scattered. So simply all bottomlines are organizational expertise. A property supervisor is actually the most effective juggler on the market. They’re coping with, I acquired collections arising, and I acquired lease’s doing within the fifth, and I acquired these three HVAC models stopped working, and that tenant wished me to name him again, ship me a query. So a property supervisor must be in the midst of so many various issues and dealing with a pretty big to-do record, and the to-do record may very well be loads of various things unexpectedly.And they also must be one hundred percent organized and there are little checks you should use to determine how organized anyone is or indicators you see for those who are unorganized, they must be as they’re among the best wants for folks individuals and heat. The property managers that I’ve which can be actually good at what they do. The tenants view them as nearly just like the father or mother of the house complicated. It’s just like the house constructing, “That is the mother or the dad that I’m going to.” And so they deal with the tenants like they’re their youngsters in some methods as a result of they hold them below their wing, they give the impression of being out for them, they do every little thing they want. When the tenant wants one thing, they’re proper on it. And I believe on high of that… like a superb father or mother, you resolve wants.“Oh, your HAVC’s not working, that’s fantastic.” Nicely, you additionally want to have the ability to be disciplinarian. “Nicely, you didn’t pay your lease this month, and so I’m not going to simply permit you… You it again to me subsequent month. You possibly can’t be a pushover as nicely.” And so they’ve acquired to have that no BS angle in the case of being a property supervisor. You need to should be like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde in some methods to be prepared to go powerful on a tenant and never allow them to stroll on you, but additionally be likable and respectable to what the tenant goes to respect you and know that you simply’ve acquired their again and so they’re going to need to keep there for a very long time as a result of they know that you simply’re going to handle their stuff because it comes up.

Andrew:Yeah. I imply, once I take a look at our greatest property managers, there’s I say eight distinct traits. One, good group expertise. Matt, such as you mentioned, they’re dealing with invoices and funds and checks and evictions.

Matt:And by no means drawing the ball.

Andrew:Yeah. And requests from their house owners and every kind of stuff like that. You being very aware of resident requests, even those which can be annoying or appear foolish or petty as a result of it doesn’t matter. To that resident, it’s vital. And the power to separate these two issues. You possibly can nonetheless be aggravated, simply don’t let the residents see that. Give them the respect. Matt, you touched on this, a stability of coronary heart and no BS, empathetic, type, understanding, however lease is due similar to the mortgage is due and the property taxes are due you. I’ve seen loads of buyers get into bother by being too empathetic. There’s a distinction between, nicely, there’s a distinction between empathy and sympathy. Empathy is knowing the individual, whether or not they’re Susan’s sympathy is extra of like, “Oh, yeah, okay.”

Matt:Nicely, you’re getting concerned.

Andrew:Yeah, it’s getting concerned. That’s higher. Yeah. Sympathy is getting concerned, empathy is extra understanding. And sympathy is like, “Nicely, all proper. It’s okay. I perceive. You possibly can simply make up the lease subsequent month.” Guess what occurs subsequent month, “Oh, you recognize what, I acquired a flat tire.”

David:I’m going to deal with you.

Andrew:Yeah. This why I don’t handle anymore. I’m too good. I’m that man. Once they instructed me, “Nicely, my automotive acquired a flat tire,” I consider them. “Okay, I’ll allow you to pay me subsequent month and we’ll simply do an assault in our subsequent month’s lease and no matter.” There are specific folks which can be minimize out to be property managers which can be in a position to method the world with a hammer in a single hand and a hug within the different. For me, at all times the hug man, very, very large coronary heart and every little thing like that, however I’m not one which is excellent on the hammer aspect with tenants and every little thing like that. So I acquired walked on fairly a bit as a property supervisor, so I don’t do it anymore.

David:You two, you need to staff up since you’re the hugger and he’s the hammer.

Matt:Sure, that works out. Proper. Proper.

Andrew:And the fourth factor is that they acquired to have the ability to construct good rapport with different staff members, whether or not once more yours or third celebration. Ideally they deal with the property prefer it’s theirs. I’ve acquired some managers that… It’s wonderful. I swear they act like they personal it greater than I do. And it’s wonderful the distinction that that makes. And after we attempt to acknowledge and honor and reward that, it’s not simply, “Oh, cool, I acquired this one that…” And we encourage that and provides them extra autonomy to do issues. Now we have a supervisor that simply determined, “Nicely, I believe that aspect of that constructing would look higher a distinct coloration.” She went and painted it. And the regional was like, “What are you doing?” And I used to be like, “No, no, no, no.” We belief her and guess what, “That appears nice. Do the remainder of the property.” No, once more, not everyone seems to be minimize out for that autonomy, however somebody who like… Nicely, they may nonetheless deliver it as much as you.

David:Precisely. Precisely.

Andrew:Get this factor and get permission. On this particular instance, she knew we had been okay together with her doing that factor as a result of she’s so good. However you’re precisely proper. It’s the sense of possession. Simply noticing, “This may look even higher if we painted out this.” I need to do a 90 day problem the place people who find themselves struggling to get a promotion or make more cash or have success, simply say for 90 days, “Deal with every little thing of the individual you’re employed for, for those who reside in a property, deal with it prefer it’s your individual.” If it’s your boss and also you suppose, “If this was my firm, what would I need to do?” And see if that doesn’t completely change your life.

David:You understand what, you’re proper as a result of when we have now a resident that comes out and so they decide up the trash across the unit, even when it’s not from theirs and also you go of their unit and it’s glowing clear, every little thing’s good and arranged, we’re positively extra inclined to provide them slightly bit leeway.

Andrew:Oh, yeah, one hundred percent. It’s prefer it’s magic. Make folks such as you and also you make folks belief you. Such as you mentioned, the most effective level there when she took it upon herself to color it, we mentioned, “Go forward and paint the remainder of the property.” And also you instantly thought, “How do I give them extra accountability, extra freedom, extra autonomy, extra all of the issues we are saying we wish.” All of us complain in regards to the micromanaging boss, however we don’t ask the query of ourselves like, “Nicely, what would possibly I be doing that wants micromanaging?” Yeah, it’s at all times a shift in accountability onto another person. That’s why I’d encourage folks to deal with issues prefer it’s their very own, as a result of if you’re the one that’s the king, heavy is the pinnacle who wears the crown and also you’re worrying about every little thing, if you see the individual prepared to hold the burden with you, it mechanically opens your coronary heart to the place you need to give extra.Dave Osborne instructed a narrative of how Matt King, who’s now the CEO of GoBundance, turned his first assistant the place Matt mentioned, “Hey, your spouse’s coming to go to you. I’m going to go clear up your lodge room earlier than she will get right here.” Matt might have even mentioned one thing, “Not my spouse. I don’t care.” However he’s like, “If my girlfriend was coming, I’d need her to return right into a clear lodge room.” I’ll deal with Dave like I’d deal with myself. And lo and behold, he’s now operating Dave’s empire.

David:I believe the missed level there may be that Matt knew that Dave’s room was going to be an absolute mess when his break.

Matt:I do know. He’s like, “Pay attention, I do know your room’s a practice wreck proper now and so I’m going to go and assist.” The instinct was there.

David:I imply, Krista, she’s sensible sufficient to say, “Hey, so this factor was added to your calendar in the present day.” She’ll ship me a textual content message, simply to say, “Be sure to see this.” She is aware of me. I cannot test my calendar. I take a look at it within the morning and I see what I’ve to do and I’m accomplished. That’s a part of placing your self in different folks’s sneakers and taking accountability is considering like, “If I used to be that individual, that is what I would want.” So I believe that’s actually good recommendation. You’ve gotten about two or three extra I believe.

Andrew:Yeah. Primary, we touched on this actually as somebody ideally that’s actually participating with residents and the remainder of the staff member. Additionally anyone, and that is if you’re beginning to scale up and get slightly bit larger, anyone that may assist information the staff. So that you get a supervisor, nicely then you definitely add a leasing agent, now you’ve acquired a upkeep supervisor, and then you definitely add a upkeep tech or a grounds individual, no matter, that property supervisor is somebody who can have a 10-minute assembly with the upkeep individual within the morning and say, “All proper. Right here’s our work orders. Let’s prioritize them. Exit. Handle that.” After which she checks in on the finish of the day, which one’s acquired accomplished, which one didn’t, why. “Hey, leasing agent, do that.” And might coordinate and do all of that.After which lastly anyone that’s good at delegating work as a result of the property supervisor can fall into the identical entice that we as entrepreneurs fall into. We’re going to do all of it ourselves as a result of that’s what acquired us right here. And that’s truly one thing we’ve had to assist a few of our property managers develop by way of is, “No, look, you’ve acquired loads of models. Let’s get you a leasing agent and delegate this.” Otherwise you shouldn’t nonetheless be doing these invoices day after day after day. This different individual ought to do it. And then you definitely simply confirm that they did it. So ideally it’s anyone that may delegate work in order that they’ll develop and as you scale. Hopefully they’ll transfer up and scale with you.

David:Now, Matt, will you discuss briefly about, Andrew talked about a leasing agent needs to be a pleasant persona. He’ll see folks typically working in retail like, “Oh, you ought to be the one answering the telephone when folks name or assembly him with you. What are another issues that make somebody a superb leasing agent?

Matt:The perfect leasing leasing brokers I’ve seen are ones which can be in a position to a little bit of a drive and which can be considerably financially motivated. And the most effective factor to do with a leasing agent is provide them some form of a bonus, even when it’s not like a typical realtor will get half a month’s lease or one thing like that as commissioned. At a bigger property administration firm, it might be simply one thing smaller than that as a result of that leasing agent might lease eight or 9 models each couple weeks. So it could add as much as be one thing vital. So it’s acquired to be somebody who sees that, “The extra I hustle and the extra I grind and assist fill this property up or assist hold vacant models full, the more cash I’m going to make. Have that alignment and that fifty bucks, 100 bucks, no matter, per signed lease that they get as their incentive on high of their base wage must imply one thing to them.They should be hungry for that. I additionally discover that they’re sometimes charming. They’re good closers, proper? You possibly can’t permit a tenant that, “Oh, I’ll simply come again and in per week,” or no matter it’s. A very good leasing agent’s acquired to say, “Hey, pay attention, I’ve acquired three different showings this afternoon. Don’t’ you suppose you need to flip into rental software? Isn’t this unit nice?” And eventually, they’ve acquired to suppose that what you’re offering is the most effective factor since sliced bread, proper? They’ve acquired to love that, “We had a pool right here on this property.” Or, “There’s a grocery retailer down the road even. It doesn’t should be a property with a pool. Even when they’re displaying your fore household, they’re simply itemizing facilities, know the realm. “Did they’re constructing a brand new shopping center down the road, or did you notice the fuel station’s including a Quicky Mart or a drive-through automotive wash or no matter?”They acquired to know the realm and let the angle tenant know like, “This can be a good space that I’m transferring into. And this can be a good unit I’m transferring into.” They’ve acquired to know the facilities as nicely onsite. They’ve acquired to be an professional for the property and make every little thing they’re speaking about probably the most thrilling factor ever. So I believe these are nice attributes for leasing brokers and likewise good at following up, good at closing as a result of not everyone’s going to observe up on a… Goes to signal a lease proper then, so that they’ve acquired to do observe by way of and attain outs and every little thing. And another factor, within the trendy world, I simply described a fantastic leasing agent, however a stellar subsequent stage leasing agent is somebody who’s good on social media and may do Instagram posts on your property, that may do Fb posts on your property, that may take possession of your Google Pin Drop of the social media belongings of your property as these are the following stage stellar leasing brokers.

Andrew:So talking of social media, we had been doing a weekly name with considered one of our property administration groups and I requested her, “The place did these leases come from?” She’s like, “Oh, this one, this one, this one, these two got here from TikTok.” “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what do you imply these leases got here from TikTok.” “Oh, yeah, I do all these…” So seems a number of occasions a day she places these little TikTok movies out and the property has this enormous following and she or he’s getting leases off of it. And I’m like, “Okay, are you able to please educate our different managers how to do that?” And a few of them are like, “Okay, nice. I’ll learn to do that.” I’ve acquired one which’s like, “I don’t do TikTok.” I’m like, “All proper, fantastic. I’m not going to drive you to do it.” So yeah, social media expertise, that was one thing that our entire staff and enterprise realized as a result of that supervisor was doing it, once more, on her personal with out me even saying something. And I’m Like, “Wait, wait, wait, you will get lease off TikTok?” “Positive can.”I’m usually the person who somebody in my sphere will name with the actual property query, no matter it’s. So often I’ll get outdated associates or folks which can be truly making an attempt to determine what house they need to transfer into. I’m an actual property guys, so that they name me, like I understand how to reply.

David:Oh, yeah, that one proper there.

Andrew:[inaudible 00:40:21] an house in my life. However I observed that after they’re in that time of, “Am I going to go together with the whispers, the lakes, or the heights?” They’ll create this record of all of the facilities they’ve after which evaluate the rents. There’s a deep evaluation that almost all tenants are going to enter after they’re selecting the place they’re transferring as a result of ideally they’re going to reside there for some time. They don’t need to pack up and transfer always. “This was 2000 a month and it’s on this location, nevertheless it doesn’t have a pool and it doesn’t permit pets. This one does permit pets and it’s solely 2,500 a month, however blah, blah blah.”They actually put loads of effort into this and if you’re ready like that, that you simply’re that engaged in the place you’re going to go, I completely consider {that a} leasing agent that’s following up, that’s promoting them on why they’d be happier within the heights versus the whispers or no matter, is totally a sport changer. That’s such an enormous factor if you’re making an attempt to decide and also you don’t need to make the improper one. When you might have that reassuring voice that’s making you suppose… Most individuals, as bizarre as that is, obtain that as God should be telling me to maneuver to this one as a result of this individual referred to as, we at all times give that credit-

David:Signal. It’s meant to be.

Andrew:Divine intervention. They adopted up simply as I used to be making an attempt to determine this out. Now after you present them the house, they’re most likely going dwelling that evening to speak to their boyfriend, girlfriend, no matter, and say, “The place do you need to transfer?” There’s a excessive chance that’s what they’re doing if you divinely intervene and name at 8:30 to simply be like, “Hey, did you might have any questions? I’d actually prefer to have you ever right here. I believed we acquired alongside actually good.” “Oh, my gosh, they need us. We’re welcome.” “We don’t also have a canine. Let’s go over there.” Simply that one little factor can completely make an enormous distinction.

Matt:Let me so as to add on to that. And the rationale for that’s most individuals don’t go the additional mile. And so if you do, it’s stunning to folks, proper? It’s such as you usually don’t get adopted up with like, “Hey, how was that?” Like, “Hey, you had your oil modified right here at this at this store or no matter. How was it? Have been you cheerful?” I don’t get that telephone name. And so if you do, they’d be like, “Hey, they really care. That’s a superb place. Oh, I’m going to go there without end. And we’re lease that house as a result of this individual truly picked up the telephone and referred to as me.” Proper?

Andrew:Matt, you made a very good level earlier that I believe highlights the distinction between asset administration and property administration. And if you mentioned talked about aligning your staff members’ pursuits with the success of the property. Most property administration firms, for those who ask them, “What ought to we pay this individual?” They’re like, “Nicely, market’s between 24 and $27 an hour, so we’ll set it at 25.” And that’s the reply you’ll sometimes get. A very good asset supervisor’s going to say, “Okay, nice, that’s market.” But when my property has a web working earnings of 100 thousand {dollars} every year, I’m hitting my targets. If it hits 120, I’m crushing it. So what if I set it up so previous a sure goal, the property supervisor will get a sure share of each greenback above that. Nicely guess what, now their earnings goes up with as yours goes up.And we’ve accomplished that with loads of our properties and it’s labored wonders as a result of the property supervisor know, “Hey, if I work at further arduous on this, it’s not going to simply make some buyers throughout the nation or some dude in California more cash, it’s additionally going to make me more cash.” Now we have a property supervisor that makes greater than the regionals above him as a result of he has knocked it to date out of the park. And I’m so glad to pay him actually double market as a result of if you take a look at how a lot he’s making us, it’s nearly irrelevant as a result of he’s doing so nicely. So that could be a good asset supervisor ability is to verify… Even when it’s your admin individual, discover some approach to align their success with yours so that you simply’re at all times rising in the identical route.

David:So in the case of upkeep supervisors, that is one other fairly large piece as a result of poor upkeep will make folks not need to reside there anymore. I believe most individuals generally will keep the place they’re till one thing occurs that disrupts their peace. So the neighbor subsequent door is simply too loud. Their first ideas might be, “Get administration to repair it. If it doesn’t get fastened, I’m transferring.” Or one thing’s damaged that received’t get fastened. Everybody has a tolerance. After which at a sure level they simply get to the purpose they’re like, “I’ve to depart to repair this.” And the vacancies are very costly, each since you’re leasing agent now you must pay somebody to go and refill it, plus the time frame nobody’s occupying, it’s vacant. After which the flip, you bought to repaint and redo all these items. So upkeep supervisors can truly assist to maintain your bills decrease. What’s two issues that every of you guys suppose that you’d spotlight as in the case of upkeep supervisors? What are a very powerful issues that you may suggest?

Andrew:I imply, I believe we’re going to function on the bottom assumption that whoever you’re speaking about has primary upkeep expertise. They know the distinction between a Phillips and a flathead, which is about so far as I can get. So I don’t have any higher analogies than that. Primary is raring to contribute. And what I imply by that’s they’re, it’s not simply, “Okay, I acquired these 5 work orders. So long as I get these accomplished in the present day, I’m fantastic.” Nicely, perhaps they’re out engaged on work order quantity two and so they see that the following resident over, their door simply jams. It’s gotten absorbed the moisture and it doesn’t match anymore. So each time they see them popping out and be like, shoving their shoulder. “Oh, maintain on a second.” They arrive over, regulate the hinges, “Oh, look.” And get it fastened for them in like 5 minutes.It doesn’t want a piece order. After which they’re somebody that’s keen to assist out the supervisor simply wherever issues come up. One instance I can consider is we have now a upkeep supervisor that we lately employed and he involves our calls with a notepad and has a listing of issues to go over after which takes notes on the issues we speak about in order that he can go observe up on them and get it taken care. And we by no means even requested him to try this. I imply he’s simply that desperate to contribute and be part of it. In order that’s enormous. After which one different one is I’d additionally say, and so they’re tied collectively, is {that a} upkeep one that understands it’s a staff effort.Yeah. Okay. He’s acquired 5 work orders to do, however he might have a contractor that onsite that’s renovating unit that he’s acquired to verify the provides are there and that the supervisor, property supervisor is there to verify he acquired the provides order. As a result of sometimes upkeep doesn’t order their very own provides. Typically that’s not the case, however usually it’s a staff effort with, “Okay, we want this. The supervisor makes certain.” And simply being prepared to step in and assist out wherever wanted. And being on name is candidly most likely one of many worst points of being a upkeep individual at an house complicated, ’trigger you’re going to get name at 2:30 within the morning on Christmas that somebody shoved a teddy bear down the bathroom and now it’s flooding the unit.Not that anybody’s ever going to get pleasure from that, however anyone that is ready to say, “All proper, that is a part of servicing this group and issues like this are going to occur.” And hopefully as a superb asset supervisor, you’ll make that as much as them on the again finish. We’ve had conditions like that and we’ll ship that upkeep individual like a present card like, “Go take your spouse to dinner. Our property ruins your New Yr’s Eve.”

David:Okay, we perceive. Sorry about that. And thanks for answering your telephone and going and taking care. That’s superior.

Andrew:Yep.

Matt:So as to add into there, it’s humorous, it simply appeared to be a standard theme throughout the property administration staff, due to this fact the location supervisor, leasing agent, no matter is a way of possession. And the way in which a way of possession reveals up for the upkeep technician is issues like, “Nicely, we’re 20 work orders again this month, in order that implies that these 20 tenants are ready on me to do a factor for them at the moment are ready and that’s not okay. And so I would like to choose up the tempo. I have to knock out these work orders.” No matter. A foul upkeep tech’s going to shrug their shoulders and say, “Nicely, that’s all-”

David:I get to it once I get to it.

Matt:Yeah, I get to it once I get to it. And we’ve all seen upkeep techs which have that philosophy and there’s additionally the hustle upkeep technicians which can be like, “Pay attention, that’s not acceptable. These folks want me.” Then that’s a way of possession and so they actually take… Exhibiting as much as the calls of the notepad. We’ve had upkeep techs inform us like, “Pay attention, we had been giving unit turns,” which means when a unit vacates, the onsite upkeep had been the fellows that had been turning the models round. They got here to us and mentioned, “Hey, we want slightly little bit of assist. And that world on unit turns ’trigger had loads of businesses present up and so they requested us for assist as a result of they knew they couldn’t preserve their work order move and it was not going to be okay for work order stability to get means out of whack as a result of they knew that that was one thing, that was like possession.They knew they had been chargeable for that. In order that they mentioned, “Can we usher in slightly little bit of quick time period assist to assist us do some portray, to assist us do the trash out?” No matter. And we mentioned, “Positive, completely.” As a result of we knew they cared. That’s why they requested for that. And it wasn’t ’trigger they didn’t need to do the work. It’s as a result of their obligations had been going to start out falling off the plate.

Andrew:Yeah. And there’s one final thing I need to tackle. So anybody listening may be saying like, “That’s nice guys that the three of you might have all these great upkeep pairs of individuals. I’m simply making an attempt to get somebody to really present up and do one thing on time.” That’s our downside too proper now. I imply, Matt and David and I are on the scale the place we have now these staff members in place, however upkeep might be the toughest place for us to fill proper now. And we have now sadly employed folks that don’t match these traits we simply talked about and we’ve needed to allow them to go. So for those who’re sitting there going, “Nicely, that’s nice, all these perfect characters. I simply need some character traits. I simply need somebody to indicate up.” Yeah, we’re having that downside too. It’s not simply you. Hopefully if the Fed does create extra unemployment, hopefully one of many aspect advantages is that it’ll get simpler to seek out good folks. However that’s an issue that we’re having too. So for those who’re experiencing that, don’t really feel unhealthy. It’s most likely not you.

David:All people’s kissing frogs. We discuss in regards to the perfect individual. That doesn’t imply that you simply get them on the primary attempt and even the tenth attempt. It’s usually a precise ability of determining how you could find the precise folks, which is why you deal with them so good when you might have them since you need them to deal with your property, and so they’ll most likely deal with it intently to the way in which that you simply deal with loads of the time. Nicely, thanks guys. This has been improbable. And it’s on a subject we don’t actually speak about fairly often as a result of it’s simply been purchase as a lot actual property as you may, borrow different folks’s cash, go in there quick, unfastened, and reckless, simply spray and prey and also you’ll hit the goal a pair occasions and also you’ll make some huge cash. And that focus on’s getting rather a lot tighter and it’s getting rather a lot tougher.

Andrew:“It’s going to work sooner or later.”

David:That’s precisely proper. So earlier than I get you guys out of right here, Matt, the place can folks discover out extra about you?

Matt:They will hear about me on our firm web site, derosagroup.com, D-E-R-O-S-A-group.com. Or they’ll observe me on Instagram at themattfaircloth.

Andrew:Matt’s additionally written a guide for BiggerPockets. What was that guide?

Matt:That was referred to as Elevating Personal Capital. And that’s one thing actually thrilling. And I believe that investor relations and the way in which that you simply increase more cash on your offers and the way in which that you simply deal with buyers that you have already got into your offers goes to be one thing that’s going to turn into much more, it’s at all times vital, however much more vital within the altering financial system. So everyone ought to take a look at Elevating Personal Capital at biggerpockets.com/retailer.

David:All proper. And Kush, the place can folks discover out extra about you?

Andrew:Simply search Vantage Level Acquisitions web site is vpacq.com. Additionally name a colleague request me on BiggerPockets so we are able to join there. And for those who’ve made all of it the way in which to the tip of this podcast and at both you’re somebody who loves asset administration otherwise you’re like, “I actually need to be taught that,” three out of our final 4 additions to our staff have come from the BiggerPockets listeners. There are some wonderful individuals who listened to this podcast and we’re in search of one other one. So for those who’d like to return work with us in on the asset administration aspect of the enterprise, please go to the web site. There’ll be a tab there and a hyperlink there to use. And I stay up for hopefully working with you.

David:Yeah. And I can co-sign on that. Andrew is my multi-family associate. We purchase properties collectively and the folks that have come to work for us have been improbable. And so they have truly made loads of progress with their very own portfolios as nicely. It’s a very, actually good approach to be taught if you’re working for somebody that’s going to carry you to a excessive normal, educate you issues to do issues the precise means, mannequin for you the precise approach to method it. And people habits which can be developed are the stuff we talked about earlier with the angle and the persona that you simply’re bringing to the job matter rather a lot. So please, for those who’re into multi-family, think about reaching out.All proper guys, I’m going to get you out of right here. Thanks very a lot for taking day out of your Lake Tahoe [inaudible 00:53:07] to speak some multi-family with me and our listeners. And hopefully this helps lots of people. We’ll see you subsequent time.

Andrew:See you then.

David:That is David Inexperienced for Matt “The Scorekeeper” Faircloth and Andrew “The Hamburgler” Kushman stealing all my analogies signing off.