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Episode #492: Anthony Zhang, Vinovest – From Barrel to Financial institution: The way to Spend money on Whiskey
Visitor: Anthony Zhang is the co-founder and CEO of Vinovest, the world’s first platform for investing in superb wine.
Date Recorded: 6/21/2023 | Run-Time: 52:48
Abstract: In in the present day’s episode, Anthony updates on the enterprise since his first look two years in the past. He shares Vinovest now has over 100 million {dollars} invested and 150,000 registered customers. Then we dive into their entrance into the whiskey market and discuss concerning the funding profile of whiskey, the way it compares to wine, and what else is in retailer for this rocket ship startup.
For listeners of the present, Anthony shared a particular deal for listeners of the present, so go to www.be a part of.vinovest.co/meb and the primary 50 those who fund their accounts will obtain a $50 bonus.
Sponsor: Future Proof, The World’s Largest Wealth Competition, is coming again to Huntington Seaside on September 10-Thirteenth! New in 2023 is Breakthru Conferences Program – which will likely be facilitating greater than 10,000 1-on-1 conferences. Monetary Advisors and LPs, get your ticket FREE plus a $750 reimbursement by making use of for the hosted conferences program by the August fifteenth deadline.
Feedback or options? All in favour of sponsoring an episode? Electronic mail us [email protected]
Hyperlinks from the Episode:
0:39 – Sponsor: Future Proof
2:17 – Intro
3:22 – Welcome Anthony again to the present; Episode #349: Anthony Zhang, Vinovest
6:47 – Covid accelerated digital adoption within the conventional wine trade
10:03 – An outline of Vinovest’s providers and merchandise
14:20 – Vinovest’s market permits lively wine buying and selling with excessive month-to-month volumes
16:56 – Sizzling tendencies within the wine trade
21:14 – Athletes and celebrities entrance into the wine trade
27:19 – Whiskey providing launched as a consequence of excessive demand
31:13 – Investing in barrels supplies stronger fundamentals with ageing and shortage elements
33:31 – American whiskey begins from age zero, Scotch has age and branding
35:37 – Vinovest’s deal with long-term sustainability helped navigate startup challenges
38:15 – The variations between whiskey from around the globe
43:02 – Misplaced Spirits Distillery’s transition to a Las Vegas manufacturing highlights diversification
44:18 – Vinovest’s providing of recent make barrels stands out amid the American Oak scarcity; Odd Tons episode
46:22 – Wines he has been sampling this previous yr
48:07 – A unprecedented wine that left an enduring impression on the blind tasting
• 51:18 – Be taught extra about Anthony; Vinovest; Twitter @anthony_j_zhang; Electronic mail: [email protected]
Transcript:
Welcome Message:
Welcome to the Meb Faber Present, the place the main focus is on serving to you develop and protect your wealth. Be part of us as we talk about the craft of investing and uncover new and worthwhile concepts, all that can assist you develop wealthier and wiser. Higher investing begins right here.
Disclaimer:
Meb Faber is the co-founder and chief funding officer at Cambria Funding Administration. As a consequence of trade laws, he won’t talk about any of Cambria’s funds on this podcast. All opinions expressed by podcast individuals are solely their very own opinions, and don’t mirror the opinion of Cambria Funding Administration or its associates. For extra data, go to cambriainvestments.com.
Sponsor Message:
Future Proof, the world’s largest wealth pageant, is coming again to Huntington Seaside on September tenth to Thirteenth. Over 3,000 finance professionals in each related firm in FinTech, asset administration, and wealth administration will likely be there. It’s the one occasion that each wealth administration skilled should attend. New in 2023 is Breakthru conferences program, which will likely be facilitating greater than 10,000 one-on-one conferences. Monetary advisors and LPs, get your ticket free plus a $750 reimbursement by making use of for the Hosted Conferences program by the August fifteenth deadline. You heard that proper, a free ticket plus 750 bucks by making use of to the Hosted Conferences program by August fifteenth. Get out of the lodge assembly rooms and convention halls, and as a substitute get out into the sunshine and onto the seaside. No go well with or tie required. I used to be there final yr, we’ll be there this yr, and can’t wait to return. Get your ticket at a particular low cost charge while you register at futureproof.advisorcircle.com/meb, or click on on the hyperlink within the present notes.
Meb:
What’s up, my pals? We acquired a extremely enjoyable episode in the present day. Our returning visitor is Anthony Zhang, founder and CEO of Vinovest, which provides traders the flexibility to put money into wine, and now whiskey. In in the present day’s episode, Anthony updates on the enterprise since his first look two years in the past, he shares how Vinovest now has over $100 million invested throughout 150,000 customers. Then we dive into the doorway into the whiskey market, discuss concerning the funding profile of whiskey, the way it compares to wine, and what else is in retailer for this rocket ship startup. I just like the pitch a lot, I simply purchased a whole cask of American whiskey. We’ll see what we do with it. Can we maintain it on the market, appreciation, or simply drink all of it for Cambria Traders? TBD.
For listeners of the present, Anthony shared a particular deal. So go to affix.vinovest.co/meb, or click on on the hyperlink within the present notes, and the primary 50 those who fund their accounts get a $50 bonus. Have you learnt somebody who’s a wine or whiskey connoisseur? Remember to ship them this episode and inform them to subscribe to the present. Anthony profiles the 2 favourite bottles of wine he’s ingesting in the present day. Please take pleasure in this episode with Vinovest’s Anthony Zhang.
Meb:
Anthony, welcome again to the present.
Anthony:
Meb, it’s a pleasure to be again on. Thanks for having me.
Meb:
Rather a lot’s been happening in your world, man. You went and acquired married, you’ve been operating round Europe, you launched new companies, you moved to Newport. Give us a catch-up. What you been as much as, man? The place do we discover you in the present day?
Anthony:
Yeah, I feel most significantly, married to the love of my life, McKenna. We’ve been collectively since we have been 18, that first week of school at USC, and eventually tied the knot. So we simply acquired again from a honeymoon in Italy. Purchased a bit of little bit of enterprise together with the pleasure, so acquired to satisfy with quite a lot of our vineyard suppliers, we’ve acquired just a few workers on the market as properly, so we acquired to fly them out and get to see them in individual, which is a uncommon alternative while you’re right here on the West Coast.
Meb:
The place’d you guys go in Italy? As a result of I observe you on Twitter and was jealously liking a few of the pictures. It appeared fairly superior. The place’d you guys go?
Anthony:
So we truly flew into Zurich, as a result of that’s the one direct from LAX, after which we spent a pair days there, went right down to Lake Como, stunning, stunning area, after which went right down to Milan for a pair days, after which we took that prime pace practice right down to Florence, after which spent many of the journey across the Florence and Tuscany space, the place quite a lot of the vineyard companions we work with are there. A whole lot of the Chianti producers, quite a lot of the Brunello producers, and Montalcino, after which went all the best way up onto the west coast there in Bolgheri, the place quite a lot of the Tremendous Tuscans are. So it was superior getting to satisfy quite a lot of the house owners and CEOs of these wineries. Been on Zoom with them a dozen instances, bunch of emails, so good to place an actual face and physique to the title, and naturally get to style some nice wine on the wineries.
Meb:
Yeah. We acquired quite a lot of enjoyable reminiscences from Italy. My spouse speaks Italian, and type of her complete household, brothers and sisters all studied in Bologna, and so we’d positively like to recover from there. I’ve by no means been to Lake Como. It’s on my to-do listing.
Anthony:
Yeah. It’s … summer time.
Meb:
Yeah. Properly, welcome again to Cali. You’re now down south of me as a substitute of north of me, and your corporation has been booming. So give the listeners a bit of little bit of an replace. What do you guys do, for individuals who didn’t hearken to the primary pod? We’ll put the hyperlink within the present notes, however what do you guys do? After which we are able to stroll ahead on what’s been happening in your world.
Anthony:
Sounds nice. So I’m one of many co-founders and CEO of Vinovest. We’re a wine and spirits funding platform that permits traders to have the ability to diversify their portfolios into an actual asset class, an actual bodily asset. So we put money into precise bottles, circumstances, barrels of the product. We allow you to select the precise portfolio building primarily based in your objectives round time horizon, objectives round portfolio building, and we maintain onto it, custody it with our companions, allow you to insure the bodily asset as properly. After which when time involves exit, we additionally assist with the eventual sale. And I feel final time we have been on was almost two years in the past now, or perhaps over two years in the past, so loads’s modified with the enterprise, and I feel maybe most excitingly, we began as solely wine, wine and Champagne, and we simply launched our whiskey product. So went from solely doing Scotch, after which we simply branched into American whiskey as properly, and we’re tremendous excited by the reception that we’ve gotten and the companions that we’ve been capable of kind on our manner right here.
Meb:
Yeah. So, we’re positively going to spend a while in whiskey, as a result of you have got been the recipient of me harassing you over e mail and asking a number of questions and being very curious and on this whiskey world. I imply look, don’t get me fallacious, I like wine and I like beer, however whiskey was positively a curiosity to me.
However let’s keep on with wine for a minute. And listeners, we’ve finished a handful of exhibits on a bit of extra [inaudible 00:07:13] matters, wine, I feel we talked about it with Professor Dimson of Triumph of the Optimists fame, a few of the white papers that he put out, but in addition my favourite investing e-book, Triumph of the Optimists, and he talked about historic returns. Stroll us by means of the final time we chatted. So 2021, positively a reasonably euphoric time in conventional public markets. I don’t know if we now have a reputation for the interval we went by means of not too long ago, whether or not it was meme inventory, COVID, shitcoins, no matter it was, but it surely positively was a bizarre interval, however we appear to be on the opposite aspect of that, however right here we’re a pair years later, give us an replace. Was wine… Was your world… It type of zigs and zags, does its personal factor, however how was it impacted by quite a lot of this COVID, post-COVID, publish public markets, on and on. Give us an replace on the wine world.
Anthony:
Yeah. I feel COVID actually helped to speed up quite a lot of the, I’d say, digital adoption of the wine trade. Wine is a really conventional trade. The best way most of those winemakers are making wine and distributing and dealing by means of the availability chain is similar manner that they’ve finished for many years, a whole bunch of years. They’re doing what their fathers did, and so they’re doing what their grandfathers did. So when all on-premise visits to wineries stopped, the worldwide provide chain halted, quite a lot of wineries, they have been pressured to go surfing. And I feel similar in my family, in all probability yours too, Meb [inaudible 00:08:42] wine consumption, alcohol consumption generally spiked up throughout COVID when individuals have been caught at house. In order that led to, I feel, much more consciousness of manufacturers, particularly ones which are esteemed to be worthy of holding onto for a very long time.
And we positively noticed a few of that tailwind that occurred from the stimulus checks, the meme shares, the tech growth. It wasn’t the explosive like 100%, 200% good points in a yr that we have been seeing, however we have been beginning to see the wine efficiency, the indices that we monitor, go from their historic, I’d say round 10%, 11% annualized return, 2021, we noticed 15% returns, 2022 it was round 14%. So we’re capable of see positively an out-performance of the benchmark in these couple years publish that growth. And now that issues are slowly returning again to regular, world provide chain is getting de-clogged, I feel we’ve had one other tailwind with this recession that we’re getting into into. Alcohol consumption generally goes up throughout recessions, in order that consumption bump that we noticed throughout COVID has been sustained, even into now mid-2023. So we’ve continued to experience a distinct type of tailwind proper now, however one which we’ve nonetheless continued to see out there.
Meb:
I joked with you final time that I used to be truly simply going to take supply of all my wine and drink it, versus working with the appreciation. Okay. So I personal 42 bottles in your web site, principally I imagine Italian, and definitely need to get extra concerned. However discuss to us a bit of bit about, how does it work once more? Inform the listeners, they arrive to your web site, they are saying, “I’m going to purchase some wine.” What’s their decisions? How do they go about it? Do they get to choose particular bottles? All that good things. Give us the overview.
Anthony:
Yeah. So we’ve acquired two merchandise that we provide in the present day. One is a extra self-directed, for somebody who does need to stock-pick or decide their very own wine, as you say. The opposite is for somebody who simply needs generalized publicity. So the overwhelming majority of our purchasers, they begin with a extra basic method. Even when you realize loads about wine from the consumption standpoint, there are some key variations while you’re it as a long-term maintain as an investor.
So we check out some preferences, like what sort of investor profile are you? What different belongings do you personal? How lengthy are you trying to maintain this? Is it a ten, 20-year, virtually infinite sort of factor? Is it a five-year maintain? What are your mandates? And that permits us and our group at Vinovest to have the ability to assemble a portfolio and suggest you wines that we expect match that mandate. So we are able to decide from totally different areas, decide from totally different classic years as properly, as a result of once we’re exiting the wine, we would like the wine to be near its peak ingesting window, when individuals are deeming it to be actually at its maturity. Then the market demand will not be solely simply different traders, it’s primarily pulled by the consumption aspect, promoting to public sale homes, retailers, restaurant teams, and collectors.
So we’ll allow you to pick these wines, we retailer it for you, so we hold it out of thoughts, out temptation as properly, so you may’t be ingesting these bottles on a Friday night time. And we additionally allow you to insure these and hold you up to date with market insights. What’s taking place to your wine? Is there an enormous critic that rated your wine a distinct rating, so that would result in a worth improve, so to say? And what’s taking place on this planet of that area? If there’s a tariff imposed on Italy, perhaps that’s boosting different areas round it. So we hold you up to date with basic market information as properly, as you’re holding this as a reasonably long-term asset.
Meb:
Right here’s an thought for you. Be at liberty as an entrepreneur and CEO to disregard. One of many concepts that I used to be simply considering of as I used to be wanting by means of my portfolio, and I see it’s being saved within the UK, quite a lot of the bottles. I used to be like, I ponder if I’m simply going to… As a substitute of truly liquidating this, I’m simply going to order a single bottle of all these from someplace, wherever I can discover them. I don’t know if it’s going to be BevMo!, however actually wine.com or someplace else. I used to be like, you guys want virtually a subscription portal, the place you say, “ what? You’re going to speculate, however we’re additionally going to ship you,” and you’ll pay to enroll in this or no matter, “one bottle of no matter you personal, simply so you may drink this and take part.” Feels a bit of extra virtually like, I’m concerned on this. I see Robert Parker gave certainly one of mine a ’94. I’m enthusiastic about that. Anyway, you ever have any capability to consider that? As a result of I feel you guys do one thing with that with a whiskey, maybe, however I don’t need to get forward of ourselves. Why is {that a} horrible thought?
Anthony:
A whole lot of people, they’re in it for extra than simply the onerous returns. It’s an experiential factor. Lots of people might have already got a ardour or perhaps they need to develop a ardour or training about what they’re studying. So we now have began doing much more in-person occasions. So for instance, in the event you personal a bottle of Dom Pérignon, we did an occasion the place the rep got here, we recognized all the parents in our consumer base that owned that bottle, we’re like, “Invite-only occasion, simply since you personal this bottle. Come test this out.” So we began doing issues like that the place it’s extra so winery-driven, as a result of they need to join with the top consumer as properly, and that’s a possibility to style. However I feel having a way to have the ability to expertise a bit of bit extra of the funding, on condition that can be a consumption and a enjoyable factor to do and enjoyable factor to speak about, it’s positively on our radar.
Meb:
Yeah. One of many issues that I used to be interested by final time is, I discussed I’m considerably of a thrifty/low cost bastard, and I mentioned, “ what? I might like to scoop up an entire portfolio of wines and simply be like the underside bid.” If individuals get upside-down, they’re buying and selling an excessive amount of Nvidia, they shorted a bunch of Tesla, no matter it could be, they are saying, “Man, I acquired to eliminate one thing, I acquired to promote this wine.” You guys applied what appears like considerably of a buying and selling… I don’t even understand how you’ll describe it, not brokerage, however market for wine that I’m at the moment scrolling by means of. Inform us a bit of bit about that. How a lot exercise is there? Is it one thing that really there’s an honest quantity of motion? How’s it work?
Anthony:
Yeah. So month-to-month volumes, we’re doing low seven figures on the platform. And I feel particularly for somebody who I feel understands a bit of bit extra the precise merchandise that’s being traded… And perhaps their affected person, they’re like, “I need to construct up a pleasant little assortment,” or, “I need to take an even bigger place than Vinovest had beneficial with my extra managed portfolio, say I actually imagine on this one wine. I need to simply gather extra of it, and I can try this alone. I can set bids anytime I need. I could be alerted if somebody’s provide will get lowered.”
And that’s one thing that’s nonetheless a comparatively new product, so when it comes to what we need to do, a protracted methods off from the eventual product imaginative and prescient, but it surely’s cool to see individuals utilizing it, and it’s cool to see individuals with the ability to set bids, dangle onto it, and provides those who early liquidity, as a result of despite the fact that most individuals predict to carry this factor for five, 10 plus years, shit occurs. You might have a child, you lose a job, you do want liquidity in a pinch, and lots of people are keen to offer away that low cost, simply to have the ability to get out fast and get their money.
Meb:
I’m scrolling by means of and I see a pair bottles on right here which are 4K plus. Is that the very best on there, otherwise you acquired some stuff that’s even larger?
Anthony:
Yeah, we’ve acquired just a few bottles, perhaps they’re Burgundys or Champagnes, which are fairly expensive up there. These aren’t going to maneuver a lot. We’re seeing many of the quantity transfer within the $100 to $500 a bottle vary. These are those that not solely have good availability when it comes to the availability, however they’re type of chunks that our merchants can transfer extra often.
Meb:
I see my mother’s favourite, some Châteauneuf on right here. She’s very southern and loves Châteauneuf. Inform me a bit of bit about what are a few of the tendencies within the wine trade proper now. What’s sizzling? What’s not? My spouse likes to order Merlot, as a result of she’s satisfied… She talked to a sommelier as soon as that mentioned that the Sideways film did 10 years of harm to the Merlot trade, and it was all the time a greater purchase, in the event you go to a spot that has an excellent Merlot on the menu. Anyway, what’s sizzling, what’s not? What’s happening in y’all’s world?
Anthony:
What’s sizzling is Italy and Rhône, truly. So these are areas that aren’t as… I’d say they don’t have the identical model worth as Champagne or Burgundy or Bordeaux, however Burgundy and Champagne have been the celebrities of the previous 5 years. They’ve been returning on common over 20% a yr for the final 5 years straight, and costs have been getting fairly stratospheric. You’re seeing these 5K bottles, for one bottle of wine. A part of what was driving that worth improve was the shortage. Local weather change performs an enormous function within the wine trade, and these are areas like Champagne and Burgundy which were notably impacted on the availability aspect. In order that they’re producing much less and fewer, collectors are going nuts over it. However now that we’ve seen a bit of little bit of cool-down within the basic macro market, we’ve all seen a cool-down in these two elements, during which they’re nonetheless type of sky excessive, however their appreciation charge has tempered down a bit of bit, and individuals are going extra towards relative values.
So, Italian wines. Love Italian wines, they’re normally fairly affordable from a worth level vary, even the costlier ones. In order that’s been the main area this yr within the wine market. I feel it’s at about 8% up, yr to this point. After which Rhône as properly. Rhône is a area which not too many individuals find out about, but it surely has as lengthy of a historical past as Champagne, Burgundy, and definitely longer than Napa. In order that one’s up round 6% yr to this point as properly, on the index that we’re monitoring. In order that they’re each actually regular buys, actually sturdy, elementary blue-chip areas that have been type of neglected, simply because they’re much less flashy and don’t have the advertising energy of an LVMH behind it making an attempt to pump up quite a lot of the model worth.
Meb:
Inform me a bit of bit about y’all’s world consumer base. Is it like 95% American, or is it one thing the place… Is it even allowed to be a world investor? And a part of that query too is, I’m type of curious concerning the world demand on the wine market generally, China affect in Asia, Europe, how the macro world with some rising inflation, varied rates of interest, simply blah, blah, blah, however need to get to how the worldwide market is.
Anthony:
Yeah. So I’ll discuss our consumer base first, after which simply the worldwide market. So from a consumer aspect, I’d say about 75%, 80% are nonetheless primarily based within the U.S. That’s the place we’re, that’s the place we’re focusing our efforts. After which organically, concerning the remaining like 20% relies in Asia, so nations like Larger China and Hong Kong, we’ve acquired Japan, Singapore. These are all our main areas outdoors america. After which just a bit bit sprinkled in all places else.
From an availability standpoint, you’re simply buying alcohol, so that you lengthy as your nation lets you buy alcohol, and so long as you’re of ingesting age, you’re good to go on Vinovest. In order that type of excludes quite a lot of the Center Japanese nations, Muslim nations as properly, from the alcohol standpoint. From a world consumption standpoint, U.S. remains to be the largest market, however China is projected to overhaul the U.S. when it comes to consumption quantity by gross sales within the subsequent two years. So in all probability by the top of 2025, China will likely be that new primary. And particularly as COVID insurance policies are actually being loosened, issues are opening up once more now, particularly in Hong Kong, which was all the time historically seen to be extra of a window into Asia, it’s zero tax, actually, actually nice for import/export. So we’re seeing much more exercise come out of Asia, particularly on the shopping for aspect. So quite a lot of the parents that we promote to once we finally promote our wines, extra of these Asian consumers who have been beforehand doorways closed, are actually open for enterprise.
Meb:
Simply jogged my memory that I noticed an funding alternative years in the past for Yao Ming’s vineyard. Are there any celebrities… I imply, I see tons, I really feel like day-after-day I see a distinct celeb that has a label, or is moving into the wine sport. I used to be truly up in Healdsburg a pair weekends in the past, and I completely love that a part of the world. It’s additionally good beer nation too.
Anthony:
Yeah. It’s stunning up there.
Meb:
It’s so fairly. Are there any specifically celeb labels that you just suppose are drinkable or scrumptious, which are fantastic? Has anybody gotten it proper in that world of actor, athlete, celebrities that you can imagine?
Anthony:
That’s truly certainly one of my favourite matters, as a result of I just about had all of them, from Snoop Dogg’s $10 crimson mix to Yao Ming’s wines, that are like 200-something bucks a bottle. So quite a lot of these wine makers or these athletes/celebrities, you bought to distinguish between them simply slapping their face on a model and them not being concerned in any respect with the viticultural aspect of it, with somebody like Yao Ming or somebody like CJ McCollum who… They purchased the land, they cultivated the vines, they’re very concerned with the wine-making course of, and it’s totally vertically built-in with what they prefer to drink and who they’re.
So for those the place it’s extra the latter case, there’s some nice wines on the market. Dwyane Wade makes his personal wine at Wade Cellars. Actually, actually nice rosé. I’ve liked it, and particularly now that we’re in the summertime, one thing that I’ll be shopping for by the caseload. Carmelo Anthony simply began his personal vineyard in France, in Châteauneuf-du-Pape as properly, so your mother will in all probability like that one when it will get launched. And then you definitely’ve acquired athletes like Yao Ming or CJ McCollum which are simply large, large wine lovers, and so they’ve acquired their very own vineyard, it’s totally a enterprise for them. It’s not only a advertising factor.
Meb:
Extra importantly, Melo was Denver Nugget, I acquired my sport 5 NBA finals hat. I joked on Twitter for some time, as a result of it was actually problematic getting there, as a result of I had kindergarten commencement the following morning, and my flight proceeded to get delayed by seven hours, however I made it with about two minutes to spare, nonetheless carrying all of my Nuggets gear. Most likely smelled a fright, however I used to be there. It was good. I’m going to purchase some D Wade wine then after which give it a style take a look at.
Anthony:
Yeah. Wade Cellars. Get the rosé, it’s actually scrumptious.
Meb:
It’s humorous, as a result of we’ve talked on the present earlier than about, perhaps 20 plus years in the past, the place celebrities, athletes, tended to be contra-signals on getting concerned within the entrepreneurship world, however to me it’s actually remodeled to the place so many have been exceptionally profitable up to now 10 to twenty years. I imply, not too long ago we see Ryan Reynolds and George Clooney and on and on and on, the Williams sisters which have simply finished… So it’s been enjoyable to look at. what’s attention-grabbing, listeners, we’ve additionally finished some farming podcasts, so far as alt asset lessons, and I noticed truly just a few come throughout my desk on some AcreTrader vineyards. I didn’t put money into them, so I don’t understand how attention-grabbing they have been, however they have been in California and I used to be very tempted. So then you would simply have your complete ecosystem of the wine world, the place you’re gathering the bottles in addition to farming the land, with out all of the onerous work. It could be a future partnership for you guys in the future.
Anthony:
Yeah, completely. There’s just a few, I feel they’re within the central coast of California, that… Fairly stable yields, and so they’re supplying you with perhaps 8% to 10% a yr, and also you’re capable of additionally say you’re a part-time winery proprietor, which is fairly cool.
Meb:
I’ve been making an attempt to persuade my brother-in-law, he’s up that manner, and he’s acquired a bit of little bit of land, to plant some vines, however up to now he’s not . Says it’s quite a lot of work. When’s you guys’ subsequent occasion going to be, man? I’ll come be a part of you guys, we’ll co-host it. Are you guys going to do any extra producer meetups this summer time? Summertime’s an excellent time to do it.
Anthony:
Yeah, I feel we will likely be performing some, as a result of particularly throughout the summer time, proper earlier than harvest, that’s the place quite a lot of the vineyard people are a bit of bit extra accessible. Through the fall, they’re simply all out specializing in the harvest, bottling, all that.
Meb:
Properly, subscribe to Anthony’s Twitter feed and he’ll announce it. Do you guys do a lot… I imply, I might assume you do, however I don’t know. Within the social world, so far as advertising. The place do most of your purchasers come from? Is it phrase of mouth? Are you heavy into TikTok content material? The place do individuals discover you guys?
Anthony:
So, nonetheless quite a lot of it’s on conventional efficiency advertising channels, your Fb [inaudible 00:25:47] of the world, however we’re actually leaning heavy on content material, particularly stuff from our personal blogs. As a result of individuals are looking about wine, whiskey, various belongings, alcohol shares, on a regular basis, and we’ve type of constructed ourselves into a reasonably large authority in that area. So in the event you’re looking, what are the very best vintages of Dom Pérignon, odds are you’re in all probability looking on our weblog. And that’s a terrific in to be like, “Oh proper, this isn’t solely ingesting Dom Pérignon, you may put money into it.” And there’s this nice web site referred to as Vinovest that makes all of it quite simple so that you can do.
Meb:
One of many enjoyable insights, and also you guys in all probability know this higher than I do, however I keep in mind over a decade in the past we have been chatting with some pals which are large skiers, that did quite a lot of writing, however in type of back-country Japan and different worldwide areas. However notably the extra esoteric you get… I imply, clearly in the event you’re writing about Dom, there’s going to be 1,000,000 articles about it, however in the event you’re writing about perhaps a particular classic or a bizarre or totally different producer, you could find yourself being on the high three on Google. A few of your little native locations in Tuscany or in Italy, you find yourself being a a lot larger alternative. Anyway, individuals are all the time looking for the bizarre ones, too.
Anthony:
Yeah. Precisely. And with the wine world, each single… It’s not simply Dom Pérignon, each single classic yr. 2008, 2009, 2010. Each single a type of is a protracted tail key phrase alternative for us. So we attempt to win on all of these small ones, as a result of all of them add up, and it’s loads simpler to rank than simply the primary key phrase.
Meb:
All proper. Properly, listeners, while you see me because the low bid on all these Vinovest buying and selling market, don’t snicker, as a result of I’m positively going to place my algo on there if I may.
Let’s discuss a bit of bit about whiskey. So I noticed this information, I acquired fairly enthusiastic about it, as a result of to me that is an space that I haven’t seen as a lot happening, and I acquired all sizzling and bothered about it. Emailed you, mentioned, “Anthony, I acquired to get in your cap desk. I like what’s happening. Please, what do you bought for me?” So inform me about this whiskey providing. What do you guys acquired happening? How’s it work? Is it the identical factor as wine, simply with a distinct liquid, or how’d you guys give it some thought, and the way’d you arrive at whiskey?
Anthony:
Yeah. So I’ll begin at how we considered it and arrived [inaudible 00:28:02] I can then discuss a bit of bit extra about how the product providing works. However it actually began all as an experiment. We heard from quite a lot of our present traders, “You guys ever take into consideration doing whiskey?” We’re like, “No, we’re Vinovest. Possibly sooner or later. We need to deal with wine.” What we did do although was we threw up a touchdown web page with a wait listing, and that wait listing we began at first of final yr, it went from about zero to 4,000 individuals within the first six months. After which once we checked out it on the finish of the yr, it went from 4,000 to just about 15,000. And we hadn’t actually paid consideration to it, however we have been like, “Oh my god, there’s 15,000 individuals who signed up for whiskey. It actually can be irresponsible to not give the individuals what they need.”
So what we did then was we’re like, “All proper, let’s determine how we are able to be capable of launch a product that has the identical options, makes it simply as straightforward for an investor to put money into whiskey as in wine.” And the important thing distinction in wine and whiskey is that the wine, it ages and develops within the bottle. On the whiskey aspect although, it’s actually all within the barrel. As soon as a whiskey is bottled, the proof stays the identical, it doesn’t flip from an 18-year to a 20-year within the bottle, all that maturation and subsequently all that worth appreciation occurs within the barrel. So then we thought to ourselves, all proper, how on this planet are we going to determine find out how to put money into big barrels? We’ve acquired to maneuver additional up the availability chain.
So we began working with precise whiskey suppliers and the precise manufacturers, and what we realized was there was a extremely attention-grabbing alternative, virtually like a working capital play, the place even an enormous model like Diageo, they’re going to make an 18-year Macallan, they’ll’t actually have a barrel on their stability sheet for 18 years that’s not producing income and solely creating prices. So then what we realized that quite a lot of these manufacturers do is that they’re promoting them to traders, giving a variety of returns, or generally even a hard and fast return and glued buyback date, and permitting others to have the ability to personal it. And you’ll promote it again to the model, they’ll bottle it. You may truly work with an unbiased bottler and really bottle it below a non-public label, or you may promote it at public sale. So there’s a variety of totally different exit choices.
However we thought this was tremendous distinctive. It’s even tougher to retailer a whole barrel of whiskey than it’s a case of wine. So we thought this was much more particular with regards to our mission of actually breaking down limitations and creating entry. So, that’s what our whiskey product does. You’re going to put money into a whole barrel, all of its yours, and you’ll select what to do with it. Bottle it, promote it at public sale, promote it again to the model, and also you get your choice now between Scotch, so quite a lot of the main manufacturers, Macallan, Bowmore, Ardmore, after which on the American aspect, much more standard manufacturers like Excessive West, WhistlePig, and issues like that.
Meb:
I truly went to the Excessive West distillery this previous winter. It was truly fantastic.
Anthony:
The one in… I feel it’s in Park Metropolis, proper?
Meb:
Yeah. Exterior, they’ve the normal bar downtown, however they’ve the precise distillery perhaps, I don’t know, 20, half-hour away, and exquisite location. What was the choice… As a result of theoretically you would have gone the route of, we’re going to purchase bottles of Hibiki, or this fancy scotch, and it’d be like a bottle-based conceptual, versus this barrel primarily based. Is it one thing that you just’re contemplating each, or there was a call to go full cask versus the bottle idea that you just went with, extra just like the wine world?
Anthony:
Yeah. So it was actually extra of a elementary evaluation the place, once we checked out wine, there are two essential elements from a elementary aspect that drive worth appreciation nationwide. Primary is ageability. So, a one-year-old wine of 2021 classic goes to style totally different than once we’re in 2030 and its 9 years outdated. And secondly, it’s that offer and demand. If you happen to resolve to ship your wine house and drink a case of it, that implies that there’s six bottles much less on this planet, after which worth will go up. So we see the identical elements within the barrel aspect. Once we’re ageing the barrel, we now have that appreciation, it will style totally different. After which you have got that shortage as properly, the angel’s share lowering the precise quantity of alcohol within the barrel, the place we really feel actually good from a elementary evaluation aspect.
From the bottle aspect, you solely have that shortage play. Possibly there’s solely 300 bottles produced, after which it’s actually simply primarily based on who else is ingesting it. That bottle’s going to remain the identical, and also you’re actually type of on the mercy of the market. So we thought that, by beginning with barrels first, to not say that we gained’t ever do bottles, there’s only a stronger elementary play for investing in these barrels.
Meb:
I type of like the concept of shopping for a cask and bottling it, and doing it for Cambria giveaways. So while you say cask, I’m horrible at public math, however what number of bottles is in a cask? Do you have got any thought?
Anthony:
Yeah, so for a conventional hogshead, which is the barrel measurement that the majority of our barrels in, it’s about 300, 350 bottles. So relying on the age, a bit of bit much less if the barrel will get older and the evaporation, however that’s type of the final vary that you may take a look at.
Meb:
There’s a reasonably large unfold between the American and ultra-rare Scotch casks. Are you able to discuss a bit of bit concerning the choices right here, so far as the American whiskey versus the Scotch choices, and how one can go about reserving one?
Anthony:
Yeah. So on the American aspect, that’s our extra entry degree product. We’re shopping for new make, so that is simply model new barrel, model new alcohol, and also you’re ranging from age zero. In order that’s why the value level’s loads decrease, and generally, American whiskey’s simply cheaper on the retail market than Scotch. On the Scotch aspect, you’re usually shopping for one thing that already has at the very least 5 to eight years of age on it. So that you’ve acquired all that appreciation inbuilt, and it’s normally branded, so you realize that it’s a Macallan cask, or you realize that it’s an Ardmore cask. Whereas with our American cask, it’s just about impartial till a model decides to scoop it up and add their particular recipe to it.
Meb:
Do you have got any present favorites on this world? We had a Kentucky good friend that gifted us a bottle of… Rabbit Gap? Rabbit one thing, that was fantastic, good shock from some native Kentucky crew. Something that you just’ve come throughout which were notably attention-grabbing?
Anthony:
I feel on the American aspect, I’m actually an enormous fan of no matter Sazerac produces. They’re an enormous conglomerate, they’ve a variety of manufacturers, and within the trade it’s notably prized to get your fingers on a Sazerac barrel. And on the scotch aspect, I’d say in all probability Ardmore is my favourite. So we’ve acquired just a few barrels there which are perhaps 12-year, 18-year, and I additionally personally have a few 12-year Highland Park cask, and that’s our Vinovest IPO barrel. So it’s one thing that we purchased proper when the corporate began, I feel it was about eight years outdated, and now it’s 12 years. So once we go IPO, we’re going to be bottling that and giving all of our workers and traders a bottle of it.
Meb:
The startup ecosystem for a lot of has been a wrestle the previous yr or two, I suppose. Funding has dried up. You’re beginning to see some corporations fail. We have been chatting about an organization in your world that simply type of in a single day simply introduced, “We’re gone.” Which you see once in a while, which is all the time type of stunning. You see corporations which are like, “We’re doing superior, the whole lot’s going fantastic,” after which actually it’s similar to, “Simply kidding, we’re finished.” However that’s a part of this startup world, the challenges and the whole lot with it. As you guys construct this, what are a few of the challenges within the final couple years? Did you get caught up within the Silicon Valley Financial institution mess? Is funding a problem? What’s been your expertise of this world that you just’re concerned in, final yr or two?
Anthony:
Yeah. So I feel we’re actually lucky, I feel, within the asset class that we function in. We’re nonetheless a FinTech, however once we’re our friends, most of them have been in conventional shares or crypto, large swings in costs led to large swings of their stability sheet, within the buying and selling charges that they’ll gather, within the AUM charges that they’ll gather. And we have been positively jealous of them in 2020, 2021 once they have been simply posting loopy consumer quantity development, loopy demand, and we’re like, “All proper, we’re nonetheless chugging alongside. Our traders are pleased with 15%.” And now that they’ve had a down yr final yr, the place the whole lot’s simply cratered below them, we’ve additionally simply been actually fortunate to be chugging alongside [inaudible 00:37:12] we delivered traders a low double-digit return once more.
So I feel simply given the character of the asset class, given the mentality of our traders who’re all simply very long-term, this can be a small piece of their portfolio, no-one’s acquired a good portion of their funding portfolio in wine, and it’s one thing that they type of simply set and neglect and count on to be fairly pleased just a few years down the road. I feel we’ve additionally type of taken that mentality to only be sluggish and regular, probably not get caught up within the hype or the brand new issues, and simply deal with constructing for the long run. And I feel that’s actually helped us out when it comes to not giving into the whims of the market. Now we’re at this break-even money degree the place we are able to simply survive indefinitely with out extra enterprise capital funding. So we’ve additionally been capable of future-proof ourselves for any future downturn out there, not need to depend on VC funding, and simply be capable of develop actually sustainably and organically, as a result of we made this promise to our traders 4 years in the past that it’s a 10-year funding, so we have to be round in 10 years.
Meb:
I like scrolling by means of your web site, as I ponder shopping for a cask proper now, however there was a extremely attention-grabbing stat, to completely take a tough left flip right here. However listeners, see in the event you can guess the highest 5 whiskey-consuming nations, and simply take into consideration them in your head. Primary is a complete shocker to me. The reply you guys have is India.
Anthony:
Yeah.
Meb:
What’s happening in India? I imply, I do know there’s only a shit-ton of individuals there, however I didn’t know that such large whiskey drinkers.
Anthony:
Yeah. I feel the true reply is, there’s a shit-ton of individuals there.
Meb:
It’s 3 times the scale, listeners, of the U.S. whiskey-consuming complete. So we acquired 462 million liters within the U.S., 1.5 billion liters in India. This jogs my memory of… I heard a statistic the opposite day, and so they have been speaking about fantasy sports activities and the way it’s taken off, and all of the web sites and choices which are being profitable off this. They usually mentioned, “Do you know that really the largest fantasy sport is cricket?” And I used to be like, “What are you speaking about, cricket?” They usually’re like, “Yeah, in India it’s truly a large trade, is fantasy sports activities about cricket.” And I mentioned, “No kidding.” So similar to sheer numbers, it’s wonderful the dimensions of what occurs.
Anthony:
I’ve truly had Indian whiskey as properly earlier than, so it is sensible that they’re the primary nation by quantity, not by gross sales {dollars}, as a result of I feel it’s simply in… It won’t even be in new barrels, they may simply be placing wooden chips in stainless-steel tanks, ageing it for 3 months, and calling it [inaudible 00:39:55].
Meb:
The weirdest place I ever had whiskey was in Bhutan, did a visit with my mother, and had some native whiskey, and went to a joint that had karaoke. And it was a bit of totally different there, as a result of as a substitute of getting your self as much as sing, which I used to be very pleased to not do, you truly would pay the waiter or the waitress to go sing a track for you, which was a bit of totally different fashion, but it surely was enjoyable. Loved it. I can’t keep in mind the title of it, but it surely was not too unhealthy. I’ve by no means had an Indian whiskey.
Anthony:
It’s fairly good. I imply, it’s positively whiskey to drink, not whiskey to consider and ponder.
Meb:
As I take into consideration, ponder, shopping for a cask, the rest I ought to be excited about? Or, you’re speaking to people who find themselves on this world, something we passed over on the whiskey aspect that you just suppose is especially insightful or attention-grabbing or one thing they need to contemplate?
Anthony:
I feel the opposite consideration on shopping for a cask is considering the place it matches into your time horizon technique. The advantage of American whiskey is that it’s fairly short-term as compared. You may be capable of get a return in two to 4 years, whereas Scotch, it’s at the very least 5 years. It’s the age of these merchandise that you just see in market, 18-year, 21-year, 25-year, that’s when the costs actually begin to skyrocket. Whereas the American whiskey market, individuals are nonetheless ingesting it younger. In order that’d be the largest think about my thoughts, if I have been in your sneakers proper now.
Meb:
One of many matters that I actually learn loads about over the previous 10 years, not a lot within the final 5, was there was a variety of corporations, scientists, startups, making an attempt to condense that ageing course of from 10, 20, 50 years down to love three months. Has there been a lot success there? I do know there’s teams which have claimed they found the key to accelerating that ageing course of, but it surely doesn’t look like it’s actually translated into manufacturers and gross sales. Is that proper? Or give us an summary of…
Anthony:
Yeah, I’ve heard these headlines too, or seen them, perhaps 4 or 5 years in the past. And to be sincere, I haven’t heard a lot buzz about it since. Or I haven’t heard… I feel perhaps from the style standpoint, even whether it is similar, there’s nonetheless the model worth, there’s nonetheless the respect of workmanship, of time, of that artisanal worth that individuals purchase, together with the model. And I feel one other a part of it’s the shortage. Individuals need the certainly one of 300 bottles that’s a particular assortment or collaboration with some artist, versus this mass-produced, we are able to style like an 18-year-old scotch, however we’re truly made within the lab for six months, sort of factor. So I feel there’s going to be many the reason why it’ll by no means be the identical, however I feel it’s cool to the informal drinker who might not be capable of afford, on a weekly foundation, that very same style profile.
Meb:
That is humorous. There was once a distillery in L.A. that type of claimed to do that referred to as Misplaced Spirits.
Anthony:
Yeah. They do actually cool excursions, by the best way.
Meb:
Yeah. Properly, the joke I used to be going to say was that I went on the tour, and it was wonderful, and it was extra like a Disneyland of rum or whiskey, no matter it was, than something. And I did the maths and I used to be like, “Wait a minute, you guys make like two or $3 million from this tour.” I used to be like, “The rum is type of irrelevant to this complete enterprise.” And I simply appeared it up as we’re speaking, and it’s now Misplaced Spirits Distillery & Trendy Cirque Present in Las Vegas, and it’s a whole…
Anthony:
Entire manufacturing.
Meb:
Yeah. I imply, they’ve like 40 resident performers, one of many largest manufacturing present casts in Las Vegas, which seemingly has nothing to do with rum or whiskey, however I suppose that’s type of the purpose, so no matter.
Anthony:
Yeah. I keep in mind going there for a good friend’s birthday celebration, and also you’re simply in there, it’s a extremely cool expertise. And it’s quite a lot of ingesting. It’s very totally different than wine-tasting, in the event you’re simply taking photographs of several types of rum and spirits, you come out the opposite finish and also you’re like, “Whoa.”
Meb:
Yeah. Attention-grabbing. Properly, while you guys do the Vinovest tour, tell us. Signal me up.
What else is occurring? What have we passed over in the present day that’s notably attention-grabbing? I do know that there’s a barrel scarcity. I used to be listening to Odd Tons with that Bloomberg crew, and so they did an entire episode on why there’s no barrels. Is that one thing that impacts you guys in any respect, or it’s extra a curiosity, or what’s happening there?
Anthony:
Yeah, in order that’s… Due to the American oak scarcity, it’s actually onerous to seek out new make barrels. And that’s additionally why we’re, I imagine, the one firm in america that gives new make barrels accessible to the general public. It’s normally simply swooped up, long-term contracts, by certainly one of these large 5 conglomerates that simply use it for their very own manufacturing. So it’s onerous to seek out these new make barrels. It’s positively going to be tougher and tougher to seek out them. In order that’s why we’re fairly proud to have the ability to have that as an providing for most people.
Meb:
Very cool. We’ll add a hyperlink within the present notes to that Odd Tons episode. It’s enjoyable to hearken to. Is that primarily a COVID factor, or is that simply extra of a provide/demand? Are these guys…
Anthony:
I haven’t listened that exact episode, however from what we all know from our trade companions, it’s actually the oak scarcity, American oak. To make these barrels, they acquired to develop for a pair a long time, and the rise in demand for these varieties of barrels has significantly outpaced the pace that these timber may even develop. So I’m positive there’s now an organization that’s making an attempt to hurry up oak tree manufacturing or development, and that whoever figures that out goes to make a ton of cash.
Meb:
Yeah. What have we passed over in the present day that you just suppose is especially attention-grabbing? We are able to discuss whiskey, wine. Is there one thing you’re like, “Oh man, we acquired to cowl this, we haven’t touched on it.” Is there something in your mind?
Anthony:
No, I feel we lined just about the whole lot. Somewhat little bit of whiskey, a bit of little bit of wine, a bit of little bit of enjoyable in between that. However I feel, actually all the time simply get to take pleasure in chopping it up with you, Meb, so thanks once more for having me on.
Meb:
All proper. Give us some picks, man. Within the final 12 months, what have you ever been ingesting that we are able to add to my order listing that’s been a delight, a shock, fantastic. I observe you on Twitter, so I all the time write down… You’re in my saved folder loads, as a result of I see you ingesting some good things, and I say, “All proper, I’m going so as to add that to the listing.” However for the listeners, what’s some good issues that you just’ve sampled over the previous yr?
Anthony:
So I’ve positively been in a reasonably lucky place, particularly coming off of that honeymoon in Italy, the place I had a ton of nice Italian wine. So I’d say when it comes to a crimson wine, the Sassicaia 2020, so it’s a Tremendous Tuscan, which implies it’s primarily a Cabernet mix with another Bordeaux grapes. Nonetheless very, very younger, so that is positively one to maintain in your wine fridge for just a few years, and also you open it up at an important day, you’ll be very, very pleased. If you happen to’re not that into crimson wine, you’re searching for white wine, I might go within the path of white Burgundy, going to a sub-region referred to as Chablis. So there’s a producer referred to as Vincent Dauvissat, and he farms this little village referred to as La Forest, and it’s a extremely unbelievable crisp white wine.
Meb:
And the title of the model is La Forest?
Anthony:
Form of just like the sub-name. So it’s a Vincent Dauvissat Chablis, Premier Cru, and La Forest is that particular one which they make, as a result of he makes just a few totally different bottles of white wine. And that one’s not your grandma’s tremendous buttery Chardonnay that I feel lots of people have began getting turned off by. That is very, very vibrant, good with meals, good by itself, and it’s the most effective white wines for the value vary that I’ve ever had.
Meb:
What’s been probably the most memorable one you had up to now yr? Is there one that stands out as being notably memorable?
Anthony:
It’s acquired to be the one which we had throughout our group retreat in December. So after three years of COVID, for the primary time we had a full firm group retreat, and we requested everyone to carry a bottle to blind style. So we put a bit of sleeve over the whole lot, and we’ve acquired people who’ve handed the grasp sommelier examination, we’ve acquired individuals who similar to to drink one thing. So it was an excellent vary of palates, and we had a bottle of 1992 Domaine de la Romanée-Conti wine, which retails for almost $30,000, that I put into the blind tasting sleeve, simply to see the response on individuals’s faces once we lastly did the reveal. Priceless.
Meb:
Did it get some good evaluations? As a result of we did this with my household, and let me be clear, listeners, my household is completely pleased in all probability ingesting [inaudible 00:49:10]. So we had the Costco, after which we had some fancy bottles, and a few much less fancy bottles, and we joked afterwards as a result of the Costco was all the time rated as a seven or eight. It was by no means a two or a ten.
Anthony:
They make some stable wine,
Meb:
They simply nailed it each time. However the fancy… And once more, this isn’t a bunch of sommeliers, however the actually good and the actually unhealthy would swap locations. Individuals can be excessive up on regardless of the fancy was. So did this one at the very least get some good evaluations, I hope?
Anthony:
Yeah. I imply, we tasted over 20 wines that night time, and that one was a high three consensus for everybody. Everybody knew this was high quality, however I don’t suppose anybody would’ve guessed that it was a [inaudible 00:49:54].
Meb:
I simply think about the guilt spilling a few of that in your shirt, and be like, that’s like $500, these drops proper there. I can’t even take this to the cleaners, I really feel so unhealthy, this shirt is now value greater than it was previous to spilling it.
Anthony:
That’s a terrific trend assertion to have. This stain is $500.
Meb:
We did that when with whiskey, and my favourite was like Jack Daniel’s, which I purport to not even like. So I used to be like, wait a minute, that is nice. So, all proper, I acquired a pair on my listing. Good.
Anthony:
The factor I like about blind tasting, it positively humbles you, and also you shake away your preconceptions, and also you simply are available open and see what you’re [inaudible 00:50:39].
Meb:
Yeah, I feel it will be enjoyable to attempt to go down the sommelier certification path. There’s a lot to know, and a few… I positively don’t have the palate. My nostril has been damaged sufficient to the place I’m satisfied I simply… There’s no hope. I feel I may get affordable, however my spouse is like… I imply, she’s like a bloodhound. So I feel it’d be enjoyable to do, however so many hours within the day.
Anthony:
Yeah. Undoubtedly a enjoyable interest to do collectively. It’s not too onerous to move that intro certification, and quite a lot of it’s simply extra technical objects that basically anyone can be taught and use loads, use it each single restaurant you go to.
Meb:
Yeah. Anthony, the place do individuals go? Clearly following you on Twitter, you guys acquired an account on Instagram? Vinovest.com, or .co, excuse me. Excellent spot to be. The place else?
Anthony:
I’m superb. That’s it. Vinovest.co. You may join each wine and whiskey. My private e mail is [email protected], so all the time love listening to from y’all, whether or not it’s simply inform me what to drink, pairing with what, I’ve had readers come up and ask me that, or extra complicated investment-related query, I’m pleased to listen to all of it. So please e mail me or observe me on Twitter. At all times pleased to proceed the convo.
Meb:
Very cool. We’ll put the hyperlinks within the present notes, listeners. And when Cambria opens our cask, and/or will get all of our bottles sampled, we’ll need to throw some type of celebration. I have to get a partnership with the Cambria Vineyard up the coast a bit of bit. We have to inform them we acquired to chop a deal, so we are able to ship some Cambria wines individuals. Anthony, thanks a lot for becoming a member of us in the present day.
Anthony:
Yeah. Likewise. It’s been a pleasure, Meb.
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